your priority is to hit dh when he tries to hit you. If he tries to cancel your burrow with dh you have pretty much won. If he sets up 2 - 3 aows you better off cancelling the rush after they have finished.
I don't recommend sending so many peons at first (wait and see how the burrowrush turns out!). I think three peons is a good number because you get the burrow full and 4 peons are enough to repair it for the time being. If you take so many peons with you AND sell your tp your tech won't be any faster or even worse (since your base is lacking wood peons and you don't have any quick means of transportation), slower than your opponent's.
Specifically for the map EI, the NE would have just crept the Ogre/Troll camp if he AoW crept, and if he was Hunt creeping, the AoW would still be under construction. For both cases your hit would be timed when the NE is relatively weak and still re-adjusting from his opening. Granted, the NE will have an item advantage on your BM, you have the advantage of having multiple high-priority targets. With proper micro like capu mentions (only hit the DH when he hits you, don't go chasing after him), you'll minimize any advantage he might have.
If the NE counters by placing additional AoW's up, then your best likely reaction is to allow them to go up and simply abandon the rush. The key here is that you are the aggressor, and he is the defender; if the NE were the one pushing you, then taking out AoW's would be a priority. However, as you are the one doing the pushing, you have the option of abandoning your current position.
Things you should keep in mind when you see those AoW's go up are:
Has the NE canceled his tech?
How many AoW's has he put up in response?
How many Archers has he pumped in response?
How dry are his Moon Wells?
Have your Burrows finished constructing?
How do you match up to him in food count/resources?
The big factors are his tech, how many AoW's he's put up, and if your Burrow(s) have already finished construction.
Observing his tech allows you to see how committed he is to stopping the rush. If he's chosen to stay teching, then he shouldn't be able to put up too many AoW's and any you see going up will delay his tier2 buildings; you should be able to punish him severely for playing greedy by staying and committing to the rush. However, you should tech yourself when you get the chance to keep yourself even. If he's chosen to cancel his tech, then you can expect him to over-commit resources in order to fend off the rush. Stop reinforcing the rush and break it off while teching to gain an easy lead that you can handily ride to a win at tier2.
Observing his AoW count allows you to see just how far ahead you are. In most cases, he won't have the resources to tech now that he's committed himself to possibly multiple AoW's. Your best course of action is to break off the rush and ride the tech advantage. The NE also shouldn't have enough resources to produce from all his AoW's right away.
If your Burrows have already finished construction, chances are it's best to stay the course, especially if the AoW's are still under construction.
Allright lets explan a very popular Undead vs Orc Strategy. The Undead Lich tower rush. I'll let Arbalest explain the details.
Arbalest:
Ok... as first you gonna need to detect if the ud player plans to make the lich t-rush... it's kinda simple... let's start with an example :
i'm an orc player.... i play vs an ud in echo isles
i'll play standard...
alter.... then a burrow then barracks,
don't make the first peon coming out of the 1st burrow go scout... most likely the hero still under summon even if scout and insist he'll just kill your scout and u're come out empty handed u gonna need to scout with the peon that comes out of the 2nd burrow.
at that time u'll see the hero out and u'll see if he made lich or death knight even so that u see dk it still at risk that he's gonna towr rush you so once u see his hero get back with the peon and keep him under patrol just nearby in the way that the ud army will cross it to your base,
now goes the way of your doing to conter it,
as common orcs... u'll go blade master so priority items goes to :circles of nobelty, claws,gloves, from your shop take less clarity and dont forget the scroll of speed its NECESSARY,
the ud will sell his teleport scroll and get Sacrificial Skull , dust and a rod of necromancy(it's important to see whats your opponent got and to know what to conter)
****************
so let's start :
now u saw he's got a lich you hurry up and intercept him in his way to your base, nvm the frost armor on the acolyte just hit it and try not to take much damage for example he is going left you hit the aco 2 hits and back off for few sec cause for sure he's gonna use dust and try to focus bm once he see you retreated he'll go on his way in that moment get back and do it again ,at the same time bring the grunt at this time u probably got 2 grunts (it's good enough) once the aco is down (he'll bring others but it's ok)now it's about blocking the lich, with the 2 grunts block the lich way and focus the lich again nvm the frost armor now he'll use his 2nd dust(he no longer can count on the dust), focus him with both bm and grunt at 100 hp on bm use scroll of speed and retreat,it doesn't matter if you didn't kill him it's at your favor on the long run,
now u're back to ur base... heal get mana scroll of speed again and get back probbably he started make the zigurats he measuring the lich hp it's up to you to reblock his way or go acolytes, if the lich gow low hp then its almost over focus, kill and he'll retreat,
if not, the long way begins vs ud with orc the DOUBLE Target is necessary for expamle with the 2 grunts focus a fiend and with bm focus an aco or 2 grunts on aco and bm on the other if he brought 2, don't try to focus zigurats its useless unless he just started making it, keep doing it and it shouldn't be a problem all this lead to a gain of time that you make warmill but it still could be over with the double target mode personally i ended many games that way,another thing forget the t2 once you see he is make this just keep up with grunts, now the warmill ready make a twr or 2 inside the base.... the idea is to prevent the ud from progressing further into your base at the certain position he can't make them closer due orc twr range : 800 ud once 700,
now u can make t2 and retreat,
try to make him teleport... build towrs ...
if you failed with double mode, now with bm get few less heal and clarity go get boots and a rod of teleportation and destination ud base, do as much harm as you can prority goes to aco but if he made a close base gouls too is a good target ,at this time you proably got t2 with 4,5 grunts , demolish and sh, just use demolisher to hit zigurats to make him consume lumber and if he try to get into your your base back him off with sh grunts and retreat with scroll of speed.
on the weak faith the you will win with time otherwise you can measure if you can kill his army with some items, if you can make a peon out of your base creep an expo nearby with bm just in case but it should over,
few things to consider:
at 40% its not far thought to move into a nearby expo if the ud is really good, just got some mercenaries get an expo and defend it, this shouldn't be hard since he'll spend most of his gold on the twr rush,
-never forget to get a scroll of speed with the frost armor he could slow your units and kill them.
-on the game if you couldn't make him use dust don't engage a focus with bm with low hp(below 250) way too danger if your hero die at 60% of this kind of game the orcs lose it, he'll just focus burrows and it's over.
-don't abuse in spending gold you never know, if he succeed on twr rush, u'll need the gold to move into a nearby expo so leave potions of mana and heal as a last option.
- hint to deal vs nerubian tower : if you approch them let a grunt take the hit and strike with bm at this rate u'll get some extra hit before the lich manually use frost nova then back the grunt slowly otherwise scroll as always.
-don't push up and focus his units too much at sometimes its good to retreat and save what you can of your units a grunt is not a footmen its expensive if you got opprtunity save him.
-at certain maps like ts where you can find a zepulin use it nvm the lich can hit it i've seen instant surround from units coming down from a zepulin ending all this.
global view:
the ud will use this strategy just in small maps especially ei and sv ,at sv is kinda dangerious but you stil can use the fountains to heal your units if he destroyed your voodoo on start.
that's it i hope i helped you and have a nice day
orc vs human:
as everybody knows it's almost the hardest game for orc players since the humans got a multi combinations of units
and i'm not speaking about just standards (am+mk+sorceress+ priests+ spell breakers) or mass air
the human can do everything he got in mind his multi choices is the real danger that hu players represent, i'm not 1 of them but
i can could think of few ways to make my orc opponent have a hard time
-FireLOrd tower rush at the start while orcs got just few grunts and i'll push up with lava,militia and 6 or 7 footmen
or even make arch mage i've also seen hu players using blood mage neutralzing the blade master
while his tower get ready
-a good borrows push will keep the orc always late in food upgrate or even consumed lumber at an early borrows push
can delay your upgrate to t2
-a mass air kinda typical ,orcs have started to recover but it still not safe espacialy when the human (normally) gotan expo
and even if u defeat his griphs he can turn it into knights and i doubt u can recover from espacially when the mountain king at this point is at lvl 4
it mean if u manage to escape from the first focus on the 2nd try i seriously doubt u can get tout, ofc everything is possible i'll explain later how to do it
-or even he can make 5 or 6 mortars invisible and get them into base and focus main, at this subject i've seen many humans brought their mortars with zepulin
destroyed some tree and made it into a way you cant hit them and they are in rang to hit your main base.
-lately too i've seen hu making arch mage + blood mage + sorceress + spell breakers and they focus with heroes aoe, blizzard on units , drain mana and ban on bm it's really messy
and you'll get the feeling of not beeing able to react.
-system hero focus : as any orc u'll make blade master + shadow hunter and do some harm with (bm)and recover injuries with (sh) so they make a suicidal focus on the sh in a way he'll win in time
since your bm won't be backed with sh ,at this point humans do it in few different ways:
1- a bolt with mk quick surround and gg the sh or
2- 2 or 3 spell breakers on him just to burn his mana
in a way his effect won't last long in the fight.
3-use slow and a quick surround too
all this point,i don't say all this to make you panic or u gonna say (wtf he's making the hu sounds like humba) i want the reader to know where the harm can come from so in a game he'll keep them in mind
and in game once he see a human he won't play empty minded his way would be to be aware of what
his opponent can do and make few steps(i'll explain this too later) to detect few hints that show what he'll do.
ah yeah, one last point maps too do matter in your games, so to take down few of them is a good idea too if you don't like long games
vs hu thumb down Lost Temple, gnoll wood even i suggest you to keep it caus its almost a good map to own the way of the game
and most of hu starts won't work for example, he can't make a fas twr rush or make a burrows rush ,simply caus the way is too far
the hu do it to gain time or if he try it in gw he'll lose even greater time and lvl
so with no further let's get into the subject:
-first type: the casters and your option:
i'm gonna add a classification with maps too and give propability:
so in echo isles and secret valley let's protent your hu opponent is going fr casters,and let's suppose u're going for bm+sh
so at the start as usual bm borrow voodoo loundge and send a scout to check then get that peons goes to the near expo to the hu base and keep it under patrol effect,at this point i suggest you to forget the creeps for now caus at 80%
the hu will creep a nearby green creep and aim for an expand ,beside you never know if he plan to push burrows so stay close to him until u get t2
so get few salves and clarity ,sell tp and go bother him while he creep, keep in mind u don't wanna let him go, steel creeps back off for few sec heal etc
and get back , block am if you got a chance and if u see him starting to run arround try to be the first who buy boots
at echo if you get the boots first ,you earned ensurence to push him or kill am, with that
you delayed his expo if he was planing to make it or you saved your burrows or you saved your beastiary and spirits hotels,
ow u're free to creep and get some lvl, at this point i wanna introduce you the (multi task)creep with sh and the army in a place and the bm in another place if not to keep him nearby hu to steal creeps
and this should give you the advantage of heroes's higher lvls,if you saw the human wanna try a twr rush with his t2 ,don't ignore it its very dangerious, now this is what u need to d and get
a complete 1000% hero focus, just give it 2 or 3 sec delay so the sorceress will use slow ,then use scrool of speed ,ensnare and focus the am, don't try to hex him
the idea is to back him off if u can kill him it's nice but don't forget the mk, if u gonna use the hex use it on him so at least afte the focus and with some luck your blade master will get out alive
normally hero focus is no use but at this point the hu is propably at 40/42, not a lot of units and if you noticed most of the units got low hp, so once heroes are neutralized (1 focus ,other hexed)
it's shouldn't be hard to turn th game in your favor.
in the fight few things to consider:
-get an invulnerable on both heroes bm an sh, why?
caus at a certain moment the bm will come up with no mana and if the human use bolt on sh and your bm says :good night
and on sh caus most of the hu will try to use slow +bolt+ focus so invulnerable+ heal will make him live, even if they keep the surround and wait for invulnerable to get down he still can make it with healing himself and hexing mk
priority of kills goes to sorceress, you propably noticed the hu army got no big deal to be afraid of it but he take advantages at certains spells, so he slow the grunts and focus them 1 by 1
grunts are your shield if u lose the quickly u'll get owned easly,then priests , u know they heal with 25hp each time they raise their hands,luckly they are not hard to focus
-always and i say always don't fight in front always get your units inside his ranks, use the scrooll of speed to do that if u have too or escape using it, don't stay in front or he'll focus your units 1 by 1 or use aoe to bring your units down
and even if u try to get back u'll get owned by slow.
-use riders to ensnare some units to prevent him from going back,so you make his best choice is to use tp and thats good for you caus if the game goes long you'll have few extra units.
-and always try to get few scroll of heal it's always a good idea to have few of them.
if the hu tp fro the fight, quicky take the chance and go get a nearby expo with sh and army and wit bm go do some shopping (scrolls, invuls), scout the expo and go to his base and don't lose him from your sight
at this point the game is yours unless he's got an expo you skipped fom scouting
here too instead of using bm all the time, you can make a witch doctor and spread few eyes to scout, caus you know bm can be in only 1 place and i'm sure u know sometimes after 1 sec from the same place as the hu and u'll pass long time where you can't find him
so wards too is a good idea, you'll see if he plan to get an expo so u'll creep jack him, if you get lucky, he won't have tp on him and it's gg
-once u get an expo, and you managed to survive along with t2 , start thinking about t3,
note: t3 doesn't add much but there is few spells and items tha can be very usefull, like upgrate your spirit walker wit 600 mana poinnts and getting an orb, the orcs orb is very good for focusing units or heroes and it's also a good dispeller of summoned units
also adding a 3th hero is not a bad idea, but if your heroes will soon get lvl 6 then you can skip this part.
as orc vs human , there is no strategy that can guide you and tell you how to play, the only thing it can do is show you how to get points that give you the advantages in fight ,in structure , weak points and good economy
end of the guide orc v human part I : hope i helped you and have a nice day
the gaming level is not so bright but try to figure few things to add to ur ideas in gaming, caus you know you never learn from wining it's when it's getting messy that start upgrating your style, many mistakes has been done see how to keep it cool and recover disadvantages and don't play in your opponent game , always lure him out and forse him to play along with your rulz , oki enough talky talky enjoy watching
Last edited by Arbalest; 19th February 2010 at 12:14 PM.
Build Order: as like always with orc you start with 4+5. peon, altar, burrow, rax, and some more peon, 5 on gold and 7 on wood. aim is to get 20/20 with 1 grunt, hero and all the rest peons, this is ment because alot units of the orcish race are 3 supply worth so you get 50/50 later on.
the idea: well to be honest there's nothink you can do wrong. in my eyes this is the most imbalanced match-up in warcraft. well anyway the most effective one is still a mix. vs fiends of the ud you go 4 kodos, grunts, raider, bm + tc and some bats if needet later on. of course you change your built units like the ud. for example if the ud choose to go fiends + 2 stats + ABOS! then you add alot more kodos then usual and forget all the bats. just be sure to get advantage of your t2 expansion and harras almost all the game. go for creepjacks, you can't do nothing wrong vs it. vs ghouls the undead will probably go destroyer with lich as 2nd hero or will change to dl 2nd adding fiends to the ghouls. a formula to check that even without scout: if you kill alot of ghouls in the early game, be sure the undead will not go for dl 2nd and mass ghoul + fiend tactic. then you can except mass destroyer or even wyrms. the best counter is just mass wyver, vs every air except gargoyles you should play wyver. if he adds gargoyles you add the same amount of bats to your army.
Usage: orcs have alot of good maps for them. every fountain map is good for orc. the probably best map is Secret Valley since there are 2 fountains. the fountains heal on percentage. so 700/800hp grunts get 1% of their life (7-8hp per second) healed while ghouls (3,4 hp per second) get's halth of the grunts hp on the same time. if you play vs an undead feel free to choose LT (ROC), its the best in my eyes.
Orc vs Nightelf
alot of people say that this matchup is imbalanced. well lately alot of orc's wins so maybe the imbalance is gone the build order is everytime the same so look above for it.
the idea: in this matchup is harrasing the most important fact. i've seen alot of games with dh lvl 1 after 20minutes. it is typical since the elf tries to get tier 3 master talon or bears. bm is the most used hero in this line up and i think he deserves it the most. try to get up an expansion at t2 since the elf can't do alot against it. probably he won't even scout it if you play on TM and do a expansion in a very unexcepted place. after it stand's you should do alot of raiders since they are the best units vs elfs. of course you need alot of spirit walker too. at least 4-5. if the elf goes talon you can also try for 1-2 cata's. i know you will say "he will fly with his talons to my catas" well we all know ensnared talons cant fly so try to ensnare alot of em and the ones who fly around or even move to the catas, kill em with the bm. the most important is to get TC lvl 3. if you don't, you already lost. vs bears you should consider getting kodos and micro'ing very well, since it's very hard for orc because of the fact that orc doesn't have magic units which can kill bears and such easily. like said harras with the bm the wisps and creep with ur 3 grunts by using ur imba multitasking skill. try to cancel the lores or winds after the elf reaches tier 2. if you played this game alot, you should know when a race hits t2. it's difficult what an elf does. if he goes archer and a normal tech it should take around 40min. if you are not sure just scout.
Usage: like vs ud fountain maps are very well for an orc. for example archer heal 2,45 hp per second, which is like nothing. don't forget that elfs usually creeps fountains on GW for example in the first night, since they can shadowmelt. with dh as a big blocker it isn't a problem to creep the !heal! fountain with only 4 archers. be aware of that and don't let the DH lvl 3 before you.
edit: here is the second part of my tactics.
Orc vs Human
Here we go. If you speak about orc, you always have imbalance in your head. Almost every unbalancement goes from orc. elf vs orc; ud vs orc; hu vs orc. based on a joke but goes to reality: if blizzard removes orc, everyone would be happy. there would be small imbalance's but not as big as with orc. let's get back to the topic.
the idea: there are a fewtactics to play. even the hero choices can change. BM is the most used hero in the match-up vs human. he's good to nuke and creepjack, while multitasking. i prefer the oldschool farseer. actually you have 3 choices to play. defensive, aggresive or super aggresive. 1st is ment for lvling to lvl 3 while preventing a human to expand. second is harrasing and creeping in time. like harras, go back, creep, heal, harras. and the 3rd is the most useful if your enemy can't handle harrasing very well: harras, harras and harras. consider building shop anywhere near to the hu base and harras while getting a 2nd hero at tavern. FL or panda can be useful. of course you can choose the TC too, but for pushing summonings are better. if you must tp for example, run to ur shop wait 20sec and harras again. play aggresive but not dumb doing stupid mistakes like running in the hu base with 3 grunts while he have 1 opening to his base and blocking that with units. such things can end the game because the human could easily expand while you can do nothing.
Usage: playing aggresive does not need any map or what ever. you must have an idea before you start the game what kind of type you want to play. vs an fast expansion you can choose to play wyver too, to harras workers more effective. never play just mass wyver, you will not be able to win if the human is at the same skill level like you.
Orc vs Orc
the only match-up including orc which isn't considered as imbalanced
the idea: i saw alot of tactics in this matchup. can't really say what the best is. you must play everyone for urself and see what is the best for you. there are these tactics:
- fast tech with fs, late rax, 2 grunts + firelord push.
- normal game with grunt raider SW
- normal game with mass raider
- mass air on both sides (not very useful but still saying it, will end in mass bats vs mass bats) this tactic with bm/fs and tc for preventing vs headhunter.
- normal game with mass troll witch doctor and mass statis trap.
- normal game with grunt headhunter raider
the last but not least
- kodo raider cata
it could be i forgot some tactics, if i did so, reply in the thread and i will add it to the collected one.
Usage: on maps like LT (roc) it is kinda boring to watch and probably to play. 3 grunts running arround the fountain killing each other. or if both sides fast tech at TR you run around having 2 wolfs at the enemys farseer and running across the whole map. on every mirror the most important point is to play secure and without mistakes. there isn't a really advantage since both sides have the exact same units. every mistake can be your ruin so watch your hands
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