PDA

View Full Version : Hero roles in DotA, guide by ^FEAR



^FEAR
14th February 2009, 02:14 AM
Hero roles in DotA, guide by ^FEAR

1: Foreword

We all know it's nice to see farmed carry hero making triple kill in every team battle. But most of the people try to make carry with every possible hero from Warlock to Ezalor. In this guide I will explain hero roles in team like support and tanks. This guide is mainly to help new comers improve but still, everyone might learn something new from it. I doubt much of them will read this but still...Good luck.

2: Hero roles in DotA

I will divide them in few categories which are :

Carry heroes
Support heroes
Gank heroes
Pushers/Anti pushers
Initators
Tank heroes
Jungle heroes

NOTE: Some heroes belong in more groups since they can be played different way depending upon game situation.

2.1 Support

I will start with these guys since they are played 99% wrong in lower level games and want to be carries. Too often they are seen with Radiances/Burizas and such items. It's wrong way to play these heroes as I will explain.

Support heroes are:

Omniknight
Crystal maiden
Witch doctor
Zeus
Vengeful spirit
Enigma
Ezalor
Ogre magi
Furion
Techies
Chen
Jakiro
Puck
Rhasta
Lesharc
Lich
Krobelus
Lion
Pugna
Atropos
Necrolyte
Abbadon
Warlock
Dazzle
Invoker

These are mainly intelligence heroes who need minimal survival items to be effective. Primary role of support hero is teamplay. There are many ways supporters can contribute to team.

Some have shiny auras, like Crystal maiden who has global mana regeneration aura, others have nice heal, like Warlock who has Shadow word. As said before, they don't need items to be effective, so they will spend most of their gold buying items team needs, such as wards/dust/gem and plant them. Their role is to buy chicken in most cases, as well. For more information about placing wards check guide to warding (http://eurobattle.net/showthread.php?t=78650).

Apart from buying items supporters are mainly used as baby sitters for carry heroes who won't be able to farm and carry without their help. Example of babysitter is Warlock who's heal allows carry to stay on lane without fear of being harassed. On lane supporters should only deny creeps and let creep and hero kills to carries.

Supporters with disables, like Witch doctor, should start roaming after certain period and leave carry solo to get more experience/gold.

Items that most supporters should buy are:

Observer and Sentry wards
Chicken and later Crow
Disable items like Guinsoo scythe of Vyse
Support items like Necronomicon
Mekansm

Wards are bought and placed to secure your carry from ganks, since he is most probably farming in woods. Chicken allows your teammates to shop while not leaving lane and losing experience. Disables are gotten to stop enemy dangerous heroes from doing anything. Good option on most supporters is Necronomicon, known as Necro book. It gives nice attribute bonuses, improves team efficency due to auras and boosts your overall damage.

There are also semi-supporter heroes who can play support depending on game situation. Good example of such hero is Pandaren brewmaster.

2.2 Carry heroes

What are carry heroes?

They are mostly agility heroes which are very fragile during early periods of game and should always be laned with an baby sitter such as Warlock who will help you in growing powerful and winning late game. Carry's primary duty is to stay alive and farm as much as possible to get late game items which he, in most cases, needs.

Best way to farm is to constantly TP/travel among lanes and woods (farming neutral creep camps there) so you avoid being ganked. Also, if you have hero that is good ganker, like Shadow fiend, you should pop out from woods when you wait for creep camps to respawn.

Carry heroes should get damage items such as Buriza or Monkey king bar to boost their damage output and maximize carry potential. Most carry heroes can make good use of Radiance as primary item as it boosts their farming capability and allows them to farm rest of items pretty fast. You should aim for Radiance around 25 minutes in serious games and under 20 minutes in pubs.

Carry heroes are:

Morphling
Sven
Naga siren
Stealh assasin
Juggernaut
Silencer
Tinker
Alchemist
Luna
Sniper
Troll warlord
Gondar
Anti-mage
Davion
Drow ranger
Terror blade
Visage
Nessaj
Broodmother
Phantom assasin
Medusa
Skeleton king
Bone fletcher
Faceless void
Razor
Lifestealer
Necrolyte
Nerubian Weaver
Ursa warrior
Shadow fiend
Blood seeker
Spectre
Obsidian destroyer
Geomancer
Lycan

As said before, they are very fragile early game and need items to be effective later. For example, Shadow fiend has only 435 starting HP and is very easy to be killed early game but is force to be reckoned with later when he is farmed up.

There are also semi-carry's who usually dominate early and middle game and get big and fat so they dominate late game as well. Some examples of semi-carries are:

Dragon knight
Tiny
Tinker
Visage
Sven
Necrolyte
Mirana
Huskar
Lanaya
Admiral
Balanar
Slardar
Queen of Pain
Viper
Spirit breaker
Dark seer


As said above, most of them have some ability which allows them to net kills early game or be effective late game. Examples are Necrolyte's Reaper's scythe and Sven's God strength. Depending on game situation these heroes can fill some other role as well, for example Necrolyte can be used as supporter as well (in most cases he will, that was just an example).

2.3 Gank heroes

What is ganking and how to do it?

Ganking is very important aspect of game. If some hero is shut down form very start he won't most likely be able to fulfill his role in game. Carry heroes should be ganked mostly in early periods to prevent them from becoming strong later. Anyway, basically ganking is to carry out a sudden attack on an outnumbered enemy force for the purpose of killing one or more heroes for many posible reasons:

Ganking in order to slow down farming heroes, whether it is a tier for damage item on a carry, a Dagger on an initiator, or any other important item. This ganks are usually small skirmishes done early-mid game.
Getting gold and experience from the kills.
Ganking a lone hero, or a small group, to gain a pushing advantage if the game gets stalled. Killing an anti-pusher hero before attempting to multi-push all 3 lanes, for example.

Good gankers are heroes who can deal a lot of damage in a short time (burst damage), have a great mobility, can isolate enemy heroes, have some sort of disable (either a stun or a slow), or more likely a combination of those. Here are most popular ones, burst damagers:

Lina inverse
Balanar
Nerubian assasin
Tinker
Lich

Heroes with some form of blink have element of suprise when ganking since they come out all of sudden. Examples are:

Akasha, Queen of pain
Puck, Fearie dragon
Mirana
Morphling
Sand king
Clockwerk goblin
Furion

Disablers are also very powerful gankers. In most cases they can disable multi units allowing your allies to devastate them. Some examples are:

Lion
Bane elemental
Rhasta
Jakiro


There are also heroes who have slow attack or skill making enemy escape almost impossible. Those are:

Viper
Drow ranger
Bristle back
Pugna
Dazzle

Special mention in ganking goes to Pudge since he can isolate single hero and kill him in very short time then escape. Always watch woods when you play against this guy.

There are also roamers which are a specific kind of gankers who will spend most of the early-mid game ganking, leaving their lane very early in the game (usually around lvl 3 or 5). Roamer heroes usually have a very poor late game, and need very little items to contribute to their team. Some heroes capable of roaming are: Venomancer, Vengeful Spirit, Sven, Slayer and Crystal Maiden.

2.4 Push/Anti-push heroes

What are pushers and anti-pushers?

These are heroes who can clear creep waves alone or very fast and take down towers easily. Their role is to put pressure on enemy lanes and they should be able to push more lanes at once. Best example of pusher hero is by far, Tinker. He can push 3 lanes at once without problem.

Typical build for pusher hero are Boots of Travel along with aura items who buff creeps thus giving them advantage over enemy creep wave.

Anti-pushers are basically same heroes in other role, defending base.

Examples of pushing abilities are:

Illuminate
Shockwave
Counter helix
Great cleave
Rain of fire

While some of pusher/anti pusher heroes are:

Ezalor
Tinker
Shadow fiend
Invoker
Pit lord
Earthshaker
Pugna
Axe
Tiny
Rexxar
Lina inverse

Basically heroes who can clear huge ammounts of creeps fast with AoE spells or skills. I would put "summoners" in category as well since they can spawn creatures that push pretty fast. Some most notable would be:

Broodmother
Syllabear
Invoker
Mirror-image heroes (example Naga siren)

Certainly best way to counter push is using AoE spells.


2.5 Tank heroes

What is tank?

Tank is a hero (mainly Strength one), whose primary role is to absorb large amounts of damage from enemies and draw attention away from his allies, for example by buying Radiance. To achieve this, they generally have several defensive abilities that grant armor, regeneration, or bonus damage (e.g. Davion's Dragon's Blood, Centaur's Great Fortitude, Bristleback's Bristleback, Tidehunter's Kraken Shell), as well as a high Strength gain. Hero doesn't always need to be Strength based to be a tank. Agility example is Medusa, who is great tank due to Mana shield.

Tanks are mainly initiators as well and their best tool is Kelen's dagger of escape also known as blink dagger. What they do is blink in and try to catch as much enemies as possible as possible with their initiator spell (Reverse polarity for example) so your team can rush in and clear them. Initiators should try to catch enemy off guard for full effect.

Tanks are:

Tidehunter
Centaur
Bristle back
Sven
Dragon knight
Medusa
Syllabear
Treant protector
Undying
Alchemist

2.6 Initiator heroes

Who are initiators?

As word says they initiate battle which means they rush in first and do their AoE skill to damage or disable as much of enemy team as possible. Initiators mostly make use of Kelen's dagger of Escape known as blink dagger.

Some initiator heroes are:

Tidehunter
Enigma
Treant protector
Axe
Magnus
Puck
Shadow fiend
Pandaren brewmaster
Lesharc
Admiral
Tiny
Slardar

Their primary role is to blink in, catch enemy off guard and devastate them with their skills (Reverse polarity, for example). Then their team will have advantage winning team battle.

2.7 Jungling heroes

What is jungling?

Basically it's "laning" in woods so your team can have two solo lanes and therefore level up much faster. It's done by heroes who have some survival ability that will help them to survive while creeping. Example is Lifestealer's Feast.

Junglers should creep pull from time to time so allied lane isn't pushed too far and always open from gank. They should pop out to gank from time to time while waiting creeps to respawn.

As enemy team will notice you have jungler they will come to gank you every now and then. So if you are jungling Observer wards are must if you wish to stay alive.

Examples of jungling heroes are:

N'aix
Terrorblade
Axe
Broodmother
Centaur
Lycan
Syllabear
Tidehunter
Pit lord
Ursa warrior
Pandaren brewmaster
Chen
Dark seer

As you see all of heroes above have some form of skill that helps them creep. Chen can dominate creeps, Terrorblade can tank with images and so on. That's it for now.

I would like to thank few people:

As always, Ice Frog, for DotA
Myself, for taking effort to write this :D
Femisa for buying Radiance on every support hero and inspiring me to prove people that strategy sucks
Mezmerize & [gdl]Shadow for helping to finish guide (Initiator and jungle sections), Fika[F] for some pointers
ProtosS, for constant spam
Perito, <3 noob
You, for reading this guide

Changelog:

13/2/2009 - Wrote guide
14/2/2009 - Added initiator and jungle heroes section
14/2/2009 - Added complete list of heroes to each section

I may be wrong at some part of guide and if you think something is wrong feel free to comment it. All kinds of constructive criticsm appreciated and will be taken into consideration. Thanks for reading my guide.

sasha
14th February 2009, 04:07 AM
You should definetly add pit lord as one of most effective antipusher/pusher.
Also, imo, you should split intiators from tanks. Just a few tanks can initate as well, it's not like tanks are mostly initators .. From my point of view.

^FEAR
14th February 2009, 11:58 AM
You're right, I'll do that today when I catch time.

[gdl]shadow
14th February 2009, 12:07 PM
add junglers,cause some heroes are must woods example chen,also ench cent axe enigma(with new eildons)naix etc,these heroes ofc depends on the situation its better to jungle then to be on lane.
p.s:wl best carry wtf?! :clap:

^FEAR
14th February 2009, 12:11 PM
Will add junglers too, thanks ;).

WL best carry? :p

EDIT: Done, thanks for help both.

Fika[F]
14th February 2009, 01:10 PM
You stated that shadow fiend is carry and davion semy carry, in my opinion its the other way around... if you think about it sf isn't much of a carry, only carry spell he got is +60 dmg, and he's fragile too... while having gr8 spells, he usually pwns with his spells early-mid game, so I'd put him in semy carry.
And for davion, well he is semy-carry-carry idk xD ofc he isn't a pure carry like void, but I'd put him carry anyway cuz he actually is one of the main carry heros in dota. For skeleton... man he is pure carry, 3 carry spells and 1 stun. About sven... well he is actually underastemated and too rearly picked imo... since a good sven can pwn mid game like a semmy carry, and latte game like a pure carry... but not tank imo... well he is carry-tank like davion, but when you write examples write clear ones, axe, cent, bb, pudge(imo he rly is... roting enemy, ulty enemy... all while taking firepower, and while your team kills), cuz when you think about tanks, thinks about what items does that hero get, all 4 I stated go -hood - vanguard - hot- depending on situation while sven goes bkb mom buriza xD notice the diference...
Anyway the finest examples of a semy carry hero I can think of are mirana and sf.

Anyway good guides, keep em coming :beer:

edit: yea and you forgot to add ench to jungling heroes... like one of the best since she can controll 2 heroes from lvl 1, you might wana replace her with panda since I never saw a jungling panda... (no rly anyone saw : S ?)

Shadowbuq
14th February 2009, 01:31 PM
I think ES can be a great anti-pusher u can add it.

PROTOZZ
14th February 2009, 01:41 PM
I think the best carry is Geomancer,than Terrorblade.
Why didnt u add Lycan as jungler hero and Axe.I would add Lycan,cause most of begginers dont know Lycan can go woods.
And how Panda can jungling?

^FEAR
14th February 2009, 02:08 PM
First of all there is one thing you guys didn't understand :p. I just put EXAMPLES of, let's say, jungle heroes. I didn't put all. But since you all continue not to understand that :p, I will add all when I catch time.


;929509']You stated that shadow fiend is carry and davion semy carry, in my opinion its the other way around... if you think about it sf isn't much of a carry, only carry spell he got is +60 dmg, and he's fragile too... while having gr8 spells, he usually pwns with his spells early-mid game, so I'd put him in semy carry.
And for davion, well he is semy-carry-carry idk xD ofc he isn't a pure carry like void, but I'd put him carry anyway cuz he actually is one of the main carry heros in dota. For skeleton... man he is pure carry, 3 carry spells and 1 stun. About sven... well he is actually underastemated and too rearly picked imo... since a good sven can pwn mid game like a semmy carry, and latte game like a pure carry... but not tank imo... well he is carry-tank like davion, but when you write examples write clear ones, axe, cent, bb, pudge(imo he rly is... roting enemy, ulty enemy... all while taking firepower, and while your team kills), cuz when you think about tanks, thinks about what items does that hero get, all 4 I stated go -hood - vanguard - hot- depending on situation while sven goes bkb mom buriza xD notice the diference...
Anyway the finest examples of a semy carry hero I can think of are mirana and sf.

Anyway good guides, keep em coming :beer:

edit: yea and you forgot to add ench to jungling heroes... like one of the best since she can controll 2 heroes from lvl 1, you might wana replace her with panda since I never saw a jungling panda... (no rly anyone saw : S ?)

I prefer to see SF played as carry but I guess I'll put him in semi-carry.

I wouldn't rather put DK in carry because it depends on game situation and pick.

Leoric will be changed. Sven semi-carry. Will add mirana to semi-carry section.

Never saw Panda jungle? Merlini used it first , with stats + clap. I think I can find replay, it's pretty nice game to watch but a bit older map.


I think ES can be a great anti-pusher u can add it.

As I said I didn't name all heroes in some section. ES is indeed great anti-pusher. I will complete all sections soon and all will be added.


I think the best carry is Geomancer,than Terrorblade.
Why didnt u add Lycan as jungler hero and Axe.I would add Lycan,cause most of begginers dont know Lycan can go woods.
And how Panda can jungling?

Same as above.

Yea, Panda is good jungler. Will add replay when I find it.

Thanks for comments guys! :beer:

Fika[F]
14th February 2009, 02:56 PM
I think the best carry is Geomancer
And how Panda can jungling?

sooooo wrong lol, meepo pwns mid game when he gets meka vlads pt and has skills maxed... latte game he is far from best carry, killed easy rly...
best carry in game is spectre you can be sure in that... folowed by void mortred naix tb etc...

^FEAR
14th February 2009, 03:16 PM
Spectre is great ;). Meepo sucks later and too easily countered by any serious AoE.

Anyway, editing guide now will add all stuff left.

EDIT: Ok, done most. If I missed something or something's wrong please say. New Dirge is good tank, right? Didn't play that.


wow, very good guide

Thanks. :beer:

Perito
14th February 2009, 03:40 PM
wow, very good guide

LifeDrainer[RO]
14th February 2009, 03:46 PM
wow, very good guide

This guide is not about W(orld)O(f)W(arcraft) perito...confused forums ? >.<

PROTOZZ
14th February 2009, 04:16 PM
Dudes,have u ever watched Memmon playing geo?
If geo gets BkB,other heroes are useless against him....

^FEAR
14th February 2009, 04:19 PM
Excatly why he is banned by default in higher level games. [/sarcasm]

PROTOZZ
14th February 2009, 04:21 PM
Fear,can u make guides for Tide and Spectre?

^FEAR
14th February 2009, 04:25 PM
Spectre doesn't need guide ;). Few WB, PT and DB/Radiance. Then Manta/HoT.

Sure, I can make for Tide.

PROTOZZ
14th February 2009, 04:33 PM
I dont know to play spectre,I mean ulti.How does it work?? -.-
And Tide,i have some doubts about item build..

^FEAR
14th February 2009, 04:37 PM
How does Zeus ultimate work?

Anyway I'll write it in guide don't go off topic here ;).

[YuMa]EMPEROR
15th February 2009, 11:22 PM
Nice my little newbie :)
Finally some one who says medusa is nice tank. :)
p.s Nice guide overall :)

^FEAR
15th February 2009, 11:31 PM
Thanks nubhead. <3

PlanetHell
22nd February 2009, 11:00 PM
oh come on.many many mistakes in ur guild.really now u can never "impose" such a thing.i don't even know where to begin! never ever present A solution for all heroes.all heroes can be jungle with them u just have to know how.seems to me that u don't.u know dota as it was maybe 2 years ago.now there are many other options.

Perito
22nd February 2009, 11:05 PM
oh come on.many many mistakes in ur guild.

point out the mistakes maybe?

^FEAR
22nd February 2009, 11:06 PM
@PlanetHell: You got many mistakes in your head from what I see so far.

PS: Nice avatar Perito, someone choosen it for you or you finally got some style? ;)

PS2: Mine better still....noob.

VamoS_GringO
22nd February 2009, 11:43 PM
oh come on.many many mistakes in ur guild.really now u can never "impose" such a thing.i don't even know where to begin! never ever present A solution for all heroes.all heroes can be jungle with them u just have to know how.seems to me that u don't.u know dota as it was maybe 2 years ago.now there are many other options.

I read 2-3 of your posts here.
Conclusion:You're a pubber
What you should do:Stop giving advices to players who know a LOT more about dota than you,in every aspect.

Smurf
24th February 2009, 01:09 AM
I read 2-3 of your posts here.
Conclusion:You're a pubber
What you should do:Stop giving advices to players who know a LOT more about dota than you,in every aspect.
!support
Nice guide,I enjoyed reading it :tiphat:

^FEAR
24th February 2009, 06:00 PM
Thanks, glad you liked it. :)

rushme
27th February 2009, 01:13 PM
1. Dk and Visage aren't semi-carry
2. Initiators ? let me give you an example , naix with armlet deso and dagger jumps in battle activates rage and stomps krobelus for example , did he intitiate ? yes , by focusing all enemy heroes on him for 2/3 seconds others jump from behind (if you dont have engagers like tide etc ) a kunkka , an tinker , lion etc .. and enemy gets stomped by focusing naix and don't paing atention to others cuz is hart to maintain you're integrity and when naix for example jumps (other cases can be void , leoric rush in with ultimate etc ) is hard to say (don't focus naix ! the others are coming ) well if you dont focus naix he will rape 1by1. was just an example , am not hater , nice guide anyway.

btw if Fear=heineken , Sir.Abuse-A-Lot say's hi :)

Tito
27th February 2009, 02:21 PM
Good job, trying.

Just, a supporter zeus, hurt my eyes -.-

^FEAR
27th February 2009, 08:27 PM
By initiators I've put ones with AoE initiating skill, basically any hero can initiate way you mentioned. ;)


Dk and Visage aren't semi-carry

Why?


btw if Fear=heineken , Sir.Abuse-A-Lot say's hi

Nope. :(

rushme
27th February 2009, 09:05 PM
well yea that was my intention , any hero can initiate , i mean not really all heroes .. w/e

Dk/Visage by semi-cary you refere to : Shadow fiend , Priestess of the moon etc etc , you can't class VISAGE as a semy carry , he doesn't have any skill to use gank'ing , in fact he has that slow but that's bull**** in low lvls and if you go gang you lose farm and if visage is unfarmed = weak ass **** freekill to a hero like sven dk naix etc , why dk carry and not semi ? 1st fact is Dk full potential is at lvl 16 so the faster you get it the faster you pwn , you can't really gank with Dk , this will make him lose lvl get underlvled lvl 16 late and weak ass **** in late game , when you pick dk in you're team you rely on him for late game and if you say he semi-carry : he can gang , farm all of that you fail at logics :D , cheers.

^FEAR
27th February 2009, 09:38 PM
Visage semi-carry due to few roles he can take.

I'll put DK main carry, you're right there.

Tito
28th February 2009, 03:49 PM
You've forgoten rexxar as one of the best supporters( no wards needed, when a imba hawk gets you 1/10 of the map revealed ) and gangers into the game, he can also forest.

And ffs, change zeus of the supporter's group, someone might realise its truth. You NEVER, I mean NEVER go solo mid with a SUPPORTER, why does zeus goes on a solo line 70% of the games?

PROTOZZ
28th February 2009, 06:22 PM
Zeus is ganker,that's why he sometimes goes solo mid.But I prefer him on the lane,with ezalor for example :
Btw,If u go solo mid with rexxar,should u use hawk 1 lvl or max to 4?

VamoS_GringO
28th February 2009, 07:02 PM
Zeus is ganker,that's why he sometimes goes solo mid.But I prefer him on the lane,with ezalor for example :
Btw,If u go solo mid with rexxar,should u use hawk 1 lvl or max to 4?

Sry but that´s stupid question :pet:
Ofc you max animals...in every case.

PROTOZZ
28th February 2009, 07:18 PM
Kk,better to ask than to dont know -.-

MrCharming
5th May 2009, 10:38 PM
You do not mention enchantress in the entire guide. She's a good jungler, as well as a carry and can be played support. Seems to me such a versatile hero deserves to be mentioned =)

^FEAR
5th May 2009, 11:14 PM
Guess I forgot her.

[-NoNick-]
8th May 2009, 06:56 PM
Krobelus and invoker are not support heroes.

^FEAR
8th May 2009, 08:35 PM
When I wrote this Krobelus was support hero. : ) In .59, she is carry.

LifeTaker
11th May 2009, 11:31 AM
Good guide there.

I'd add Furion to most notable "summoners"
and mayby even Undying 'cause of the ammount of zombies and their good use in pushing/anti-pushing.

<3

jamal99
10th July 2009, 01:38 AM
U could add Leoric to jungling heroes, cuz with this new axe for creeping and 2nd and 3rd skill he's very good jungler...

^FEAR
10th July 2009, 01:45 AM
Yep but leveling Crit/Aura early is pointless due to 70 dmg crits etc.

jamal99
10th July 2009, 11:05 PM
Yeah, but if u go jungling, aura is a must while crit isn't...

^FEAR
10th July 2009, 11:10 PM
Yep, if you go jungle you would take aura.

Psykeeper
11th September 2009, 12:14 AM
hm why is dirge in tank section when he is supporter/pusher? Harrasing with Decay and Rip is keeping enemy on distance and when pushing is needed just drop tomb near tower.

^FEAR
11th September 2009, 12:44 AM
hm why is dirge in tank section when he is supporter/pusher? Harrasing with Decay and Rip is keeping enemy on distance and when pushing is needed just drop tomb near tower.

Because he is tank, not supporter/pusher.

garrone
16th September 2009, 11:07 AM
i don`t agree with you on the alchimist absorb damage he isn`t that much efective like cent or davion or like other tanks that are made for the job ..he ist more a stunner/assist , m opinion that is

BloodMen
16th September 2009, 11:11 AM
Alchemist is one of the best tank hero for me make pt, bf hot,you can make pipe for team or bkb ... .
=gg imba hp and hp reg..

Taff`
27th November 2009, 12:01 AM
you so forgot enchantres :D (bambi) fail.

Backdoor
25th May 2011, 08:52 AM
wtf, zeus, krobe invo supporters? xD

Shoocky3V
25th May 2011, 01:47 PM
wtf, zeus, krobe invo supporters? xD

thanks for thread revive, and nice useless post here.


:tclosed: