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Slayzer
30th April 2011, 02:50 AM
One of the key concepts of Magic: the Gathering play that we began to discussed last week was the idea of card advantage. To quickly summarize, basically drawing more cards than your opponent is a good thing, and very powerful.

This is actually a basic example of resource maximization. Every single card in your deck should help you win, and therefore drawing more cards helps you reach your goal of winning.

In DotA, the equivalent is creeps.

You know the creeps are there, and you know when they will be there. The only factor that you have control over is whether or not you will be there.

There are three lanes and two jungles of creeps, spawning at 30 and 60 seconds respectively. The jungle is static, whereas the creep line changes depending on equilibrium.

In a goldfish (single player) game there’s nothing except towers threatening you at any point on the map. You are free to farm as much as you want to your heart’s content; you never have to worry about interacting with your opponents.


Just imagine all those things are creeps.
However, in an actual game, the situation becomes much more different. You become limited in your choices. Every single second you are under the threat of being ganked, even next to your fountain; the only difference is that there is the degree to which you are threatened.

Even if you are backdooring creeps right outside the tier 3 (outer base) towers, if you know that each opposing hero is on the opposite end of the map, and you also know that you can get out before they can tp in and kill you, then you are, for now, under very low threat. Conversely, even if you are right outside your own T3 tower, you are not necessarily safe – a Storm or whatever at any moment could just rofl in and instagib you.

Map awareness as well as map control is absolutely vital to successful farming.

And successful farming is the key to winning most games. Yes, ‘pushing’ hard is an alternative to having a carry, but that is a very risky maneuver. The threat of a carry that can single-handedly defeat you in the late game is always looming before you, and if your team, whether through the way it was picked (a team without a carry) or through the way it is played (not farming, instead pushing hard) is not using the resource of creeps, it is putting itself in the position of simply getting outdone by the opponents who are.

I feel that this is like the aggro vs control matchups that happen in both StarCraft and Magic. As the aggressive player or deck, you are dumping “capital” into something that is temporary. You use your resources in order to do things that have an immediate effect, whether that is pumping out zealots or casting Goblin Guide. When you do this, you are trying to kill your opponent as fast as possible by dumping resources into aggressive things that provide a quick advantage but have diminishing returns. An example of this is the recent NV.CN vs StarsBoba game – heroes like Witch Doctor, Lion, etc. are great, but do not scale well.

What exactly does ‘scaling well’ mean? In StarCraft, it means that your build is meant to be effective in the late game. For example, a 14-Nexus, building a second Nexus (the main economic building) before any other building, is a build that scales extremely well because it gets your economy off the ground instantly. This generates more money than your opponent every second that it is active, meaning that you are accumulating advantage as much economic advantage as possible (it is impossible to profitably build a Nexus any sooner.) On the other hand, a 9-10-gate, building two Gateways (the main production building), generally in a proxy location, by cutting production of probes (the harvesting unit) allows you to put your resources into producing Zealots, the basic offensive unit. This means that you will be pumping Zealots immediately as soon as possible while your opponent is (likely) still producing workers. This allows you to attack with a greatly superior force in the early stages of the game.

Each of these extremes has a weakness, of course – going 14-Nexus leaves you very vulnerable for an attack of any kind, and going 9-10 gate means that if your opponent somehow survives your attack, you will likely be so far behind that it’s not even funny.

As I was saying before, the former is an example of a build that scales well, while the latter is not. In DotA, as you can probably guess, these translate into different heroes.

‘Scaling well’ simply means that a hero is able to progressively get more, or at the very least, remain equally effective as the game goes on. Obviously, this generally means carries.

However, even among carries there are many differences. How much should you farm? When should you farm? If you have two carries, who gets priority when farming?

Even if you have the ability to both be present for every creep wave and last hit each and every creep doesn’t mean you should.

For example, a hero like Bristleback has a relatively short time during which it is extremely effective. That time is right after he gets his Radiance. At that moment, generally around 25-30 minutes, the HP pools of his opponents are as low as they will ever be during the time he has his Radiance. Every single second from then on he is getting less and less effective. Sure, he can get DPS items or whatever, but he is not that good of a DPS hero – his role is as a tank that dishes out AoE damage, not as a physical attacker. Assuming the other team has a physical DPS carry like Drow, he will eventually get outclassed.

For example, consider this: following his Radiance, most Bristlebacks get Shiva’s Guard (4700) followed by Assault Cuirass (5550). Remember that the amount of gold a team is able to get is static, and the opportunities for farming are limited. How effective is a Shiva’s on Bristleback? It’s fair, but definitely leaves much to be desired.

Now give that same gold to a Drow Ranger. A Black King Bar is only 3900, and with BKB Drow becomes many times more threatening; likewise Manta Style is only 4900, and no words need to be said about the effectiveness thereof.

As such a team should definitely be constructed with this in mind. Certainly, every carry is able to make good use of the resource of creeps, which is the main method by which ‘scaling’ happens (think about it.) However, their effectiveness during each stage of the game differs, and so when looking at each individual’s role in the team as well as how your team should behave, this should be taken into consideration.

Suppose you are playing Bristleback, and that it is 25 minutes, and that you have just picked up your Radiance, and that there is a Drow Ranger on the opposing end that doesn’t have anything yet. What should you be doing? You know that you are at maximum effectiveness and are continually losing it. Your goal should be to exploit your power as much as possible, or, to put it simply, “use it before you lose it.” You (and your team obviously) should be actively seeking fights so that you can be used to the fullest potential, to gain the most advantage for your team.

Similarly, heroes like Lion and Rhasta, who definitely do scale negatively, must press their advantage when they have it. These heroes are played as semi-supporters (meaning that they do get farm but are not carries) and, like Bristleback (or other similar heroes such as Night Stalker or Krobelus), who are carries but lose effectiveness very quickly, all should have alarm bells ringing in their head as soon as they reach maximum efficiency, whether that is getting a powerful item (such as Blink Dagger or Radiance), being at a specific level (usually 6 or 11), or a combination of the two.

True, or ‘hard’ carries, are those that scale extremely well, meaning that until their item slots are full they can keep



farming effectively, and even afterward be a threat with buyback. There are relatively few of these that are used commonly in competitive play: Medusa, Drow Ranger, Sniper and Morphling lead the way as the heroes that scale exceptionally well. Behind are those that often begin to lose effectiveness just because of the way they are played: namely, Alchemist and Doom Bringer. These lose effectiveness because they are tanky heroes and are played as such; however, as the game goes on damage builds up continuously while tankiness only goes so far – to a Drow Ranger with +400 damage the difference between 2500 hp and 3500 actually is not that much.

Behind there are heroes that do lose effectiveness quickly because of their dependence on certain spells, but are still able to use farm and items relatively well, but find it hard to match heroes like Drow Ranger for damage. This group includes heroes such as Necrolyte, Tinker, Priestess of the Moon, Nevermore, and Storm Spirit. Obviously, the types of items these heroes will get will differ, but a Nevermore, given 100000 gold, will certainly lose to a Drow Ranger given the equal amount, and so they must…

Well, we’ll talk about what they must do. But first, let’s categorize them:

The first type of hero, the ‘hard carry’, are, well, the hard

carries.

The tanky heroes such as Lucifer, Alchemist, and Slardar, we will call…tank carries.

Necrolyte, Nevermore, etc. are semi-carries.

Now that we have terms defined we can move on to analysis of their respective roles and suggested behaviors.

The easiest to talk about is the hard carry. As a hard carry,

your role is incredibly simple – farm until you farming causes your team to lose.

I began with a discussion of the importance of map awareness in farming. That is provided to you by your team – you are certainly not the one buying wards, and it is not going to be because of you that your team has map control, except by your pushing of creep waves by farming, and that hardly has an effect. Instead, because the team has picked a hero like Medusa, a certain investment has been made, like having an early expansion – the goal is to reach late game when your Medusa can take over, because in the early phases Medusa does nothing at all for your team. Thus the rest of the team should be focused on that goal – get Medusa safely to late game. This is done by using the four other heroes to both protect the Medusa and/or be powerful enough that the opposing team cannot spare resources to deal with the Medusa.

As the Medusa in this situation it is very simple – don’t worry about anything but creeps, because you being in a team battle is, despite what you may think, counter-intuitive. Many players think that heroes should always take part in team battles ‘to help’, but it is very important to keep your goal in mind. This is even more important for semi- and tank carries, as we will get to in a moment.

Because of the fact that having a hero like Medusa is like an end-all insurance plan late game, the rest of the team pretty much doesn’t need a second carry, especially since the farm would be split up between two carries, and in general, especially with hard carries that get exponentially more effective with each new item (not so with other types of carries).

The rest of the team should focus on either protecting the carry or distracting the opposing team. A defensive approach would be best served with heroes such as Earthshaker or Tidehunter, heroes with powerful, hard-to-place, AoE stuns that can turn a fight around can be invaluable in coming in at opportune times to save your carry. However, they are not the best gankers, and their power lies in their ults, which generally have very high cooldowns, so these heroes cannot be used very offensively. Team fights, however, for the most part, are generally not initiated simply due to the difficulty with initiation with a team like this, and most fights will probably develop around a gank on your carry. Other examples of heroes like this are Pugna, Undying, and the like.

On the flip side your team can consist of heroes that are very potent very fast so that the opponent is forced to always stay on the defensive, leaving your carry to farm. Heroes such as Storm Spirit, Nevermore, or Lion, who all become very powerful quickly and who do not necessarily lose too much effectiveness for a good part of the game can spend their time roaming around, killing off stray heroes, and being extremely potent in team fights to boot – this way, even in a team 4v5 team fights, your team has at least a fighting chance and with good initiation certainly can wipe the opposing team while allowing your carry to free farm. For as long as your team can do this, your hard carry should be farming.


...I'd much rather hit creeps.
Tanky carries are slightly different. The purpose of a tanky carry is to deal damage while absorbing damage. To this end, items like Vanguard and Hood, which allow you, obviously, to absorb lots of damage, and Radiance or Shiva, which allow you to deal damage and/or have an effect quickly even when unable to right click, are preferred to straight DPS items like Butterfly. BKB is generally a poor choice for heroes like this. Why?

A team has, during each battle, a set amount of magical damage. In general each one of these spells will be cast as often as possible during a fight in order to maximize usage of cooldown time. Because of the nature of magical damage, there is very little one can do, outside of permanently stunning the offending hero, to prevent at least one volley of spells from any hero.

So the question is really not how much magical damage dealt (as it is with physical damage, which is over time that can be stopped by stuns and death) but rather where it goes. The reason BKB is such a prevalent item is that it diverts said magical damage and stuns to other, likely less important, members of your team, while you are free to deal damage, whether through spells or auto-attack.

As a tanky hero BKB is counterintuitive. You want to be the

target of spells, because you are able to function under them due to your considerable bulk and the way you work. At the same time, your team is not being targeted or hit by these nukes, and can respond in kind.


Monorail, tank, whatever. Still a cute kitten.
BKB aside, tanky heroes are dominant for the middle to early late game portion of the game. This time is classified as the time between the first “big” items being purchased and the time when hard carries become the dominant threat. At the point damage is relatively low, and having upwards of 1500 or 2000 HP and/or tankiness a la Vanguard/Hood/Mek is a pretty big difference. It is at this point that an offensive item, such as a Radiance, should be purchased ASAP so as to make the most use of your ability to be tanky – a Radiance, in the early stages of the game, is very effective at whittling away the HP of heroes that are yet frail, but loses effectiveness as the game progresses. A Radiance is especially useful for making yourself the target of nukes, which, as a tank, is your goal.

The last kind of carry is the semi-carry. This I classify as any hero with two or more skills that lose effectiveness greatly as the game progresses, but are also able to act as carries. This is a rather loose definition of course and is open to interpretation, but the general idea is all that matters.

The reason this is important is that skills are what make or break a hero. The only major difference between heroes outside of primary attribute is the skills they have; and so heroes like Drow Ranger, who has two damage-boosting skills (TSA and Marksmanship) along with a very potent spell (Silence) that while not as effective in the late game, is still capable to semi-disabling half the opposing team, is much more effective a hard carry than a hero like Nevermore, whose skills all lose power as the game progresses.

As a Nevermore, like with the tanky carries, you need to constantly be wary of opposing hard carries. It is even more important to press your advantage when you have it, because you lose effectiveness even more quickly than tanky carries – it does not take much for your Shadowrazes, Powershots, Death Pulses, Laser/Rockets, and the like to become no more than tickles. Even so, all these heroes have skills or innate ability to make farm on them quite useful, and so they are assigned the role of being both a caster and a farmer. However, in either role they are overshadowed, yet the combination of the two makes them quite potent for a long period of the game. This means that as such a hero, you should be in fights as often as possible because your presence in such a fight has a very large impact on it for most of the game (and in fact fights nowadays are often decided by heroes like this) but you should also be farming whenever possible, because your effective tends to go up as you farm. A balance of the two is essential.

tl;dr: if your name is Medusa, Drow Ranger, or Morphling, or one of the pub carries, farm as much as you can. If not, farm until you’re awesome then go kill stuff.

originally posted by Regal at DC community forum,
link: http://www.dotacommentaries.com/index.php/regal/4670/

RaouL
30th April 2011, 10:11 AM
Better put some images with some title and short description, instead of 5 km text.

Lowlife
30th April 2011, 10:23 AM
tl
read half

:D
but seems interesting enough, will see if I can be arsed to read the rest later

Shoocky3V
30th April 2011, 10:53 AM
yes, i am mod here but i fucking won't read this wall of text xD

paiNISTHESHIT
30th April 2011, 11:45 AM
Spending 5 min reading this text, won't get killed...

@Thread: Its quite neccesary.

Tito
30th April 2011, 04:01 PM
Where the fuck u copy this text from and why its 90% for starcraft?

Herr
30th April 2011, 04:12 PM
One of the key concepts of Magic: the Gathering play that we began to discussed last week was the idea of card advantage. To quickly summarize, basically drawing more cards than your opponent is a good thing, and very powerful.
That was quite a win.

Fika[F]
30th April 2011, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by paiNISTHESHIT View Post
Spending 5 min reading this text, won't get killed...

@Thread: Its quite neccesary.
Another google translate victim

hahaha

[MooN]Pain
30th April 2011, 06:15 PM
Very good guide!

Tito
30th April 2011, 07:16 PM
First of all, the most important thing for a carry player, is the " carry tempo".

When I say fika can't carry, I don't mean, fika can't kill creeps and heroes, I mean fika got low carry tempo.

For example u play drow ranger and have 130 cs in 20 min ( that is impressive, for a hero without aoe spell farming ), it still won't matter if you got score of 0-4-0, you probably wont even have your manta. On the other hand, trax with 70 cs min 20, having 4-1-3 score and a tower killed, will have his manta + dominator + few cheap items bands,stick,etc.

The thing with " let your teammates die and farm " is badly explained, the thing is, you must turn your brain in carry mode, this means, if you know there is no way to escape from a battle, u don't even fight it, even if that means two of your teammates will die, you just decide not to fight that battle and tp on other line to farm, example, you play morphling, vs + lina are your teammates standing next to you, u get ganked by 4 man squad, bane, clock, lich, es. Lina gets initiated by clock and signal to go fight, you just stay back and chill. If you die there, you will need 3 more min to recover etc...


Also, NECRO is a fucking HARDCORE carry, there isn't MORE hardcore carry then he is, you can't say he's SEMICARRY..

Slayzer
30th April 2011, 07:29 PM
Try not to spam thread please, it's meant to be a thread where people can get to know something new.

Fika[F]
30th April 2011, 08:54 PM
First of all, the most important
When I say fika can't carry, I don't mean, fika can't kill creeps and heroes, I mean fika got low carry tempo.


so what you are trying to say, I'm imba farmer and killer

Tito
30th April 2011, 11:02 PM
to be honest, from my post people can learn 5 times more then from that wall of useless text ;)

and most of heroes go radi not to gain advantage in battles and force fights after that, but because they don't have aoe spell farm abilities, so they need it to farm faster other items, ex: spec, sylla, bb as mentioned.

Akhe
30th April 2011, 11:04 PM
omfg, honestly, who read ALL the first post?

Tayschrenn
1st May 2011, 12:59 AM
Good lord. Whole wall of text is totally useless, wrong and about starcraft.
On the other hand what tito said is captain obvious.
So yes, I am pretty sure my deleted post is very accurate here and on topic. Therefore I will repeat it.


'WAT'

Fika[F]
1st May 2011, 01:18 AM
look,

I'd classify carry heroes like this:
hard carry:
a carry whose goal is to get every single bit of gold on the map for the first 30 minutes watching only his ass, ksing, farming, getting towers, avoiding any chance of death, then after as needed he continues farm or w/e
hero example is dusa, clinkz, void, spec

ganking carry (semy carry):
a carry whose goal is to obtain few items by farming mid until level 6-7-8, then ganking sides thus obtaining gold from kills, these heroes usually have a big spell damage output in combination of mid-latte game potential
heroes: potm, tinker, sf, pugna, viper, storm...

spell spamming carry (semy carry):
a carry that usually obtains some tanking items to ensure himself of casting spells as long as possible, he farms along the way and helps in team fights when he can
heroes: best example is necro, other good example is undying, krobe maybe, pugna(ganking-spellspaming-semy carry xDDD)

tanking carry (semy carry):
well this is similar to spell spamming carry just his main role is to go in first and be that guy around whom all the enemy heroes gather so you can place your spells more efficient in a fight
heroes: slardar, alcemist(kindof combination of tank and hard carry), axe, cent




I may failed horribly, but this is as I see it

Tito
1st May 2011, 01:35 AM
obvious for you tay, not for others, apparently : )), i read in the guide sth like " get radi and go stop trax farm before he get too fat cuz u cant kill later " :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

PROTOZZ
1st May 2011, 12:41 PM
Lol, Fika, sf ganking hero? Mass pubs you play? There are no ganking carries, because all carries have to farm, not to gank all around the map.

Tayschrenn
1st May 2011, 12:58 PM
Ok. Despite whole article being useless and mostly wrong, I start to enjoy comments here. Keep em comming.

Fika[F]
1st May 2011, 01:37 PM
Lol, Fika, sf ganking hero? Mass pubs you play? There are no ganking carries, because all carries have to farm, not to gank all around the map.

lol, after you get str pt bottle stick, you try to get doublekill on side lane if your team has disables on that lane, one stun and it's easy, you got 900 damage, after you get dagger you try to get in every teamfight there is, you farm by the way, few razes creepweave gone, you don't have to seperate time to farm

ofc all need to farm, but some do it by the way, some focus on it only


best example of gank carry is tinker, he gets lvl 7-8 and rapes side lanes, with that gold he get's bot and then it's easy

[-NoNick-]
1st May 2011, 02:14 PM
fuck ganking, tunnel vision on creeps ftw

Tito
1st May 2011, 04:03 PM
I prefer picking SF as semi carry, because of his aoe spells that make him mega useful in mid game, having one item only ( BKB ), he's rarely played as " carry ", and when done, he's mostly played on 3lane vs solo hero.

paiNISTHESHIT
1st May 2011, 05:05 PM
;1301442']lol, after you get str pt bottle stick, you try to get doublekill on side lane if your team has disables on that lane, one stun and it's easy, you got 900 damage, after you get dagger you try to get in every teamfight there is, you farm by the way, few razes creepweave gone, you don't have to seperate time to farm

ofc all need to farm, but some do it by the way, some focus on it only


best example of gank carry is tinker, he gets lvl 7-8 and rapes side lanes, with that gold he get's bot and then it's easy

Than why Tinker have to farm BoT at least before min 10 ?

Tito
1st May 2011, 05:08 PM
:DDDDDDDDD

u play too much pub leagues :D

tinker farm BoT in 10 min = spec farm radi in 15 min = just leave the game : )

paiNISTHESHIT
1st May 2011, 05:10 PM
:DDDDDDDDD

u play too much pub leagues :D

tinker farm BoT in 10 min = spec farm radi in 15 min = just leave the game : )

Than its Captain choice. He should know when to pick Tinker and when not. Btw Tito, i suggest you to see some Puppey captain replays, cuz he is one of best captains in all over the world.

Shoocky3V
1st May 2011, 07:55 PM
^
^
i just dont get why u argue with tito :D

i mean guy has at least 20 times more dota knowledge and xp than u xD

[MooN]Pain
1st May 2011, 10:23 PM
The thing with " let your teammates die and farm " is badly explained, the thing is, you must turn your brain in carry mode, this means, if you know there is no way to escape from a battle, u don't even fight it, even if that means two of your teammates will die, you just decide not to fight that battle and tp on other line to farm, example,

First time i agree with you 'bout something. Most important thing to do with a carry is not to die and to pick the fights were you can 100% win and get out alive.

Tito
1st May 2011, 11:45 PM
What does the captain chose, wtf are u talking about?

I have a feeling u didn't quite undestand what i said.. The possibility of tinker getting BoT on mid line, before min 10, are the same as spectre farming radiance before min 15 and if that happens, the other team must do MAJOR mistakes in order for you to win the game, ONCE AGAIN, I am talking about two SERIOUS teams playing, not some sfg startgame, or wherever u play.

At the end, what the fuck " go see some puppey replays " god damn means? He get tinker and farm bot on tinker min 7 or what?

Majestic.
2nd May 2011, 03:13 AM
No tito go watch pupey you noob

paiNISTHESHIT
2nd May 2011, 11:07 AM
^
^
i just dont get why u argue with tito :D

i mean guy has at least 20 times more dota knowledge and xp than u xD

First of all we are not arguing and secondly we are just speaking about Classifying carries.


What does the captain chose, wtf are u talking about?

I have a feeling u didn't quite undestand what i said.. The possibility of tinker getting BoT on mid line, before min 10, are the same as spectre farming radiance before min 15 and if that happens, the other team must do MAJOR mistakes in order for you to win the game, ONCE AGAIN, I am talking about two SERIOUS teams playing, not some sfg startgame, or wherever u play.

At the end, what the fuck " go see some puppey replays " god damn means? He get tinker and farm bot on tinker min 7 or what?

I missunderstud that you told to me. I thought that one team pick tinker and farm BoT min 10, other team pick Spectre and farm Radi min15 and Spectre > Tink.

Tito
2nd May 2011, 10:50 PM
y you're newb :)

[^RawR^]
3rd May 2011, 02:07 PM
U don't get radi to farm faster, else people would be getting midas since it's cheaper and also used to farm faster. Spending 5200 (100 creeps) to farm faster?

U get it on heroes who can stay alive to inflict 300-400 additional damage to whole enemy team, and +60 dmg is hot. Troll has no farm skills, therefore we get radi on him? Nope, cuz he can't inflict enough damage with the AOE burn like sylla or lancer, who both got no farm skills either.

TLDR: Tito is noob :D, just follow this:
fuck ganking, tunnel vision on creeps ftw

Tayschrenn
3rd May 2011, 02:55 PM
Thats not true rawr.
Ofcourse you get radi on heroes that will use it on teamfights to give some aoe dmg.
But with radi you do farm much much faster and this is the main reason people goes radi on bb and not shiva for example (also aoe dmg + as slow aura + slow WTF imba in teamfights, but you cant farm faster with it, and bb lacks aoe spells to farm fast) or lets say diffu with spec instead radi (while using ulti mana burn works on ilusions + handy purge to chase down and kill running oponents, BUT you cant farm faster with it).
Notice how radi on spec changes game immidately. Its not because she can now rape team 1v5 with only radi. Its because she will get +2 items in next 5 min, farming everything very fast while other 4 from your team go together search for teamfight. Same goes to alche etc. etc.

tldr you are WRONG )

Majestic.
3rd May 2011, 04:05 PM
imo u all noobs. Get sange yasha + deso and rape. :tiphat:

Fika[F]
3rd May 2011, 05:14 PM
well ur all stuborn idiots cuz the truth is halfway

what rawr said is true, and what tito/tay say is true also, you get radi with spec for few obvious reasons: nice stack with dispersion damage, chaser killer = radi imba, ilusions get radi buff, tank-carry = long lasting radi effect + ofcccc farm faster and y u get radi b4 diffu cuz u farm faster

bb similar, chaser tank, carry, nice stack with spray aoe damage



look at this example: spec would farm even faster or equally fast with bfurry, + smaller part items make it easyer to make, but she wont get bfurry ofc she'll get radi for reasons stated above, but mortred who is not a tankish ilusion hero will ofc chose bfurry

[-NoNick-]
3rd May 2011, 05:20 PM
bb lacks aoe spells to farm fast


?
http://media.playdota.com/hero/39/skill-1.gifhttp://media.playdota.com/hero/39/skill-1.gifhttp://media.playdota.com/hero/39/skill-1.gifhttp://media.playdota.com/hero/39/skill-1.gifhttp://media.playdota.com/hero/39/skill-1.gif +250?

[^RawR^]
3rd May 2011, 06:36 PM
but you cant farm faster with it, and bb lacks aoe spells to farm fast

No offense, but you either don't know how BB is played or didn't play him at all. I had no problems getting vang, hood, pt and radi in 25 minutes with BB when I used him in CWs. First of all, on lvl 5 u can last hit with quills better than ur opponents can deny. On lvl 7 u need like what, 3-4 quills to kill a whole wave of creeps for 140 mana. AND he is a tank and a chaser because of his passive, that's why u get radi, so u just proved my point :>


not shiva for example (also aoe dmg + as slow aura + slow WTF imba in teamfights

Shiva on BB is stupid not because radi is better but because he already got a better slow on a 1,5 sec CD + int staff is a huge waste on a hero who got 2 passives and 2 spells that cost like 30 mana.

I thought alchemist can farm good with passive and acid, why do people get radi on him? Because he can tank, or because he ''can't farm''?

Fika[F]
3rd May 2011, 07:14 PM
;1303399']No offense, but you
I thought alchemist can farm good with passive and acid, why do people get radi on him? Because he can tank, or because he ''can't farm''?

for both reasons actually, he can farm allright, but he can farm even faster with radi

Tayschrenn
3rd May 2011, 07:33 PM
God you are blind.
If you have bb and some other hard carry, you will never make radi on bb, you will make pipe/vg/shiva and this will be most helpful build in 90% games.
On the other hand if you have bb as your hard carry, and 4 other heroes are lets say gank type (lich on solo, bm, etc etc) you will make radi on bb, so you can tp from side to side and get fat very fast while your team fights for map control. Then after this 5-10 min they will have to face overfarmed bb in teamfights.

And yes, radi gives huge dps buff and aoe dmg also, thats why people buy it and not midas. ~~

Tito
3rd May 2011, 08:02 PM
Of course I am right, people who deny that are either newbs or too stubborn to admit.

Fika, farming with battle fury is harder then farming without any item, and ppl dont make battle fury is because its mostly useless in most of the games.

Rawr, your bristle idiot theory, in ss, other leagues, and low skilled " fws ", you can farm with every hero and make it very fat, you said yourself, you can farm vg hood radi in 25 min, the thing is, when there is a team fight, you're playing bristle, you have vg+hood+pt, you're COMPLETLY useless, no one even care focus u, and u do nothing except 30 dmg with spray thing. Before u cast it twice, all your supporters are dead and you're left 1v5 and u die like an apple attacked by worms. When u get radi, it gets harder for the opponents to ignore you, because now you deal dmg too and then u become the primary target of the battle, what is ultra good for you, since u have mega tank items for that hour. But this is ONLY case of BRISTLEBACK , what isn't picked in 99.99% of the games.

The whole point here was " u dont fight rifght after u get the rady ", is because of the simple reason, no team want their carry to be the primary focus of the oponents in the team fight.

Don't come speaking about " same type of hero is alche too ", no, he isn't, if u get vg + radi alche min 30, they goona jump and kill u before u even cast utli, making your whole team useless.( I speak about you forcing fight after getting radi ).

Fika[F]
3rd May 2011, 10:04 PM
Fika, farming with battle fury is harder then farming without any item.

I disagree with this

Tito
3rd May 2011, 10:52 PM
At that point, you should farm by pushing the line, means u should constantly attack creeps, to kill all the creeps with stupid cleaving attack, u need 100% focus on farming, counting if i hit this one, the next will die too etc, making u not watch the map, making u extra vulnerable to ganks.

Fika[F]
3rd May 2011, 10:57 PM
well with radi you push, and do all the same shit...

Tito
3rd May 2011, 11:04 PM
You dont fucking get it .. you farm with carry hero on line, you see red spot at map, you turn there to see who's there, doesn't matter on what line, doesn't matter where is he moving, you HAVE to know where all the heroes are, so u know what to expect, while you do that you've missed 2 out of 4 creeps, at least it was happening to me EVERY wave, last game i made bfury what was like years ago..

With radi, you kill 4/4 most of the times on autoattack.

Fika[F]
3rd May 2011, 11:12 PM
It's not that I don't get it, it's just that I have different experiences than you, I get more creeps in autoattack with bfurry than with radi xD

[^RawR^]
4th May 2011, 07:22 PM
Rofl, who buys a 5200 gold item just to farm (that's 104 creeps). Nobody, that's right. There isn't a single hero that can't tank and gets radi. Show me one, please (there's 2 examples only - lancer because of lance and illusions, and BS because of blood thirst and hp return from creeps).

And bristleback is useless with pt, vang and hood? Rofl. With only 1 level of ulti he got +50 damage in a teamfight, not to mention spray that goes like this - 80 + 110 + 140 + 170 + 200. So 700 physical AOE damage in 12 seconds, slow and imba autoattacks on an unkillable hero early don't win you a teamfight? Not to mention the spray from his back when he gets focused.

eXtasY
5th May 2011, 12:29 AM
You dont fucking get it .. you farm with carry hero on line, you see red spot at map, you turn there to see who's there, doesn't matter on what line, doesn't matter where is he moving, you HAVE to know where all the heroes are

Megapro without colored minimap? Hmmmmm, Tito you are not my dota guru any more.

Anomandaris
5th May 2011, 12:31 AM
Oh wow, lovely.

Tito
5th May 2011, 01:29 AM
colored minimap sux... u need focus 100% to see that nigershit black color tay uses...

rawr, if spray was dealing as much dmg as you described, it would be first ban anywhere : ))

[-NoNick-]
5th May 2011, 01:51 AM
not being able to recognize enemy heroes on colored map is l2p issue

[-NoNick-]
5th May 2011, 02:05 AM
also

80 + 110 + 140 + 170 + 200. So 700 physical AOE damage in 12 seconds
this is approx damage dealt on enemy units that have 0 (read: ZERO) armor.


rawr, if spray was dealing as much dmg as you described,if there was no magic stick / ~20 other better heroes that can deal more damage in less time, it would be first ban anywhere
fixed

Tito
5th May 2011, 03:04 AM
nop, there is hardly any hero who can deal 700 aoe dmg over time, that makes him primary target in battles, while him being one of the best tankers in the game.

of course playing with colored minimap is way too complicated, as i said u need more focus to pay attention on spots, you need to remember what color is every hero, else you're gonna be colorblind as normal, what is just way too much of useless information for your brain to handle ;)

JoLpAz
5th May 2011, 03:09 AM
it takes 1 min to remember all colours , if u are retarded then 3 xD

[YuMa]EMPEROR
5th May 2011, 10:17 AM
ok so if enemy red circle shows up for like 2 s and you couldn't click there and check hero before he disappeared you tp on other lane or stay back for 1 min doing nothing and then it shows up it was medusa,spectre,pl you feel like dumbass?

anyway thats just my opinion everyone plays diffrently
only game where RED TEAL colour is useful is pg 1v1

[^RawR^]
5th May 2011, 11:52 AM
nop, there is hardly any hero who can deal 700 aoe dmg over time, that makes him primary target in battles, while him being one of the best tankers in the game.

Just read the fucking spell, will you? Lol

Tayschrenn
5th May 2011, 12:01 PM
colored minimap sux... u need focus 100% to see that nigershit black color tay uses...

Hahah ;d

Tito
5th May 2011, 12:06 PM
ok so if enemy red circle shows up for like 2 s and you couldn't click there and check hero before he disappeared you tp on other lane or stay back for 1 min doing nothing and then it shows up it was medusa,spectre,pl you feel like dumbass?

Why would medusa be coming to gank you ? Even if it is, you wouldn't be the dumbass, he would be left farmless too, and their gank will fail cuz u stay in tower/fog, and meanwhile your teammates have killed hero/tower on other line ;)

You already kinda know what are the heroes who move on map and are the danger of you, having a red circle in forest and a hero on line farming vs you, is a danger indeed enough for you to go back ( if u dont play morf or another hero with such imba escaping ability, then u can go farm more, but again, it all depends of personal judgement and of heroes oponents got, example if its doom in the oposite team, or lion.. you're in trouble even with morf :D )

rawr, i stop explaining you about bb now, but i am sure it doesn't deal more then 350~ dmg, the 5 stacks u explained.

J0k3r^
5th May 2011, 01:00 PM
Smoke of deceit no circles on the minimap:bless: